User talk:Leibide

Hello Leibide, welcome to the multilingual Wikisource! Thanks for your interest in the project; we hope you'll enjoy the community and your work here.

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Please help translate to your language

Ankry (talk) 16:59, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath

Hi Leibide,

As I mentioned just now on your user talk page at the English Wikisource, I am now going to add a little information to your user talk page here on the Multilingual Wikisource. Buckle up because now it will be a rather steep learning curve on the technical side! 😀

The following is general technical information based on the explanation that Jon Harald Søby gave me of what the policies and practices are here. He may need to correct me on some of the points if I've misunderstood, but hopefully the outline will help you get a mental image of how this will work.

The work here will involve four main "moving parts": 1) a file containing a scan of the original English-language Dubliners; 2) an "Index page"; 3) a set of wikipages, one for each page in the scanned file, in which you will do the actual translation; and 4) a wikipage somewhere like Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath where we will publish the finished translation for readers.

The relationship between these four things is roughly as follows: the scan of the original is our starting point and serves for verifying that the transcribed (or in this case, translated) text is true to the original. The "Index page" is a partly technical thing required by the software we use, that, among several other things, contains a mapping from the physical page offsets in the PDF or DjVu file and the actual human readable logical page numbers of the work (the ones printed in the book: for example, the page numbered as "page 1" often occurs on the thirteenth page in the PDF file). Based on this information the software generates a set of "virtual" wikipages, one for each page in the book, on which you can do the transcription or translation. And once those per-page wikipages are done, the software uses the information in the Index page to automatically combine them together for presentation on Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath.

In your specific case, the scan of Dubliners already exists at:

• File:1917 Dubliners by James Joyce.djvu

And based on that I have created a basix Index page at:

• Index:1917 Dubliners by James Joyce.djvu

Toward the bottom of the Index page you will see a long list of links to every physical page in the scan file, each labelled with the logical page number that physical page corresponds to. Pages that are outside the numbering sequence have been given special names related to their role or function (for example, the title page) and pages that have no content in the book (end pages and such) have been simply marked with a "—".

When you click on one of those links you'll be taken to that wikipage, and since it doesn't exist yet you'll be presented with an editing interface. On the right will be an image of the page for reference, and on the left will be a large text field in which you can add your translation for that page. The text field will be pre-populated with the English text (because most of the time we transcribe works rather than translate them) which you should delete and replace with your translated text.

Once you finish with each page you should set the radio buttons down at the bottom to "Proofread" and save it (the big blue "Publish page" button). If you just want to save a partially finished page to continue later, leave the radio button set to "Not proofread" when you save it. There is a help page at Help:Page status explaining this in more depth, but those are the essential points.

One issue you will run into is that since sentences in the original are often split across pages, and translations inevitably alter the sentence structure, it will not always be possible to get those sentence fragments in the translations on the same page as in the original. In these cases you should just use common sense and your own judgement to choose what to put on which page. The general principle is that we try to approximate the layout and formatting of the original publication, but do not follow it slavishly.

In any case, hopefully that will be enough to at least get you started.

If you need help you can send a notification to Jon Harald by adding the code {{ping|Jon Harald Søby}} in a message here and then signing your message (use the signature button in the editor toolbar, or manually type out ~~~~, four tilde characters, at the end of your message). It's a bit confusing, but that's how the software here understands that you want to send a notification. Alternatively, you can go to User talk:Jon Harald Søby (Jon Harald's user talk page) and use the "Add topic" button to leave a message for him there. Messages left on a user's own user talk page always generate notifications (unless you go out of your way to disable them), so if you are uncertain whether you got the "ping" codes right that's one way to make sure.

Jon Harald is the expert here so you'll mostly want to talk to him; but as he is a volunteer like everyone else here he is not necessarily always available. You should therefore also always feel free to contact me in the same way if you need to. I also see Ankry posted the standard welcome message for you here. Ankry is also an administrator here on Multilingual Wikisource and should be able to help you if you get stuck.

Best of luck with your project, and I'll be looking forward to seeing the result.

PS. Here I have inserted the signature using the button in the toolbar: --Xover (talk) 08:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I've got down to doing it now - I've transcribed the first seven stories so far.
Question: can I add a preface to the text, as well footnotes within the translation itself, or other such explanatory notes? I've done this already with what I've finished so far in it. The preface is on page 5 in the index. If necessary, I'll delete this again, but I'd really love to include this extra detail. The preface gives some explanations for the editing choices I took throughout the translation, and the explanatory notes, complete with links, just help a little, I hope, with the understanding of the text itself.
By the way, I went back to the name Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath in the end as title for the translation, after much hesitation. I go into quite a long commentary on my alternative title for it in the preface though. Leibide (talk) 11:31, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

Progress

I finished transcribing my Irish Gaelic translation of Dubliners about six months ago. However, I see that this translation has still not been published. What's wrong? @Jon Harald Søby: Leibide (talk) 15:40, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

Hiya! Sorry, I think I forgot to follow up the last time. What do you mean by "published"? Do you mean a page compiling the translation, something like Hærramek ja bæsstamek Jesus Kristus ođđa Testament? I can help set that up, if that's the case. Jon Harald Søby (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes. That's what I mean.Leibide (talk) 10:07, 28 May 2021 (UTC)

I would love to see my translation effort published on Wikisource, just as the example you have given is.The title is Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath and it's for the Irish Gaelic language section. I gather from the advice on this page that I do not have the power to do this. The transcription of my translation I have given for every scanned page in the original must be checked by someone else to verify that my translation is true to the original. The process has been described here as involving four moving parts.Leibide (talk) 20:36, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

Hi Leibide. Apologies for not following up on this. I fear I may have lead you astray here: while we aim to have every page checked by two people independently, the second check isn't actually a requirement for making the text available. Once your translation is complete we can make it available and the hope is then that it will attract someone else with the requisite language skills to give the pages the second check. To begin with I'll leave the details there to Ankry since they are much more familiar with Multilingual Wikisource than I am, but if they don't have the time I can definitely help you out with that part (and don't hesitate to remind me if I don't follow up!). Xover (talk) 16:51, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ankry: I've finished transcluding the text to mainspace. Thank you for creating a contents page and also the first story to be transcluded. I would not have known how to do this. Xover described the process for me. I used those pages you created as a template for the rest. I won't bother with a preface after all. My only concern now is the licence on the pages you created: CC-by-sa-3.0. I would have thought CC-by-sa-4.0 was more appropriate. I've left it as is though. Could you offer me some advice there? Leibide (talk) 08:54, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

copyright

Please note, that we can only host in Wikisource texts that (1) copyright has already expired or (2) were published under a CC-BY-SA 3.0 compatible license. While the original author's text copyright has expired already, I am unable to determine copyright status of the translation made by Domhnall Nagreine. We need at least an evidence that (a) the translator or their heirs granted a CC-BY-SA 3.0 compatible license to this translation, or (b) the translator died more than 70 years ago, or (c) the translation was published before 1925, or (d) the translation was initially published in US without copyright registration in the US Copyright Office or without later copyright renewal.

Instructions how the copyright holder can grant a free license, if copyright has not expired yet, is here.

Texts/books/translation without appropriate evidence of free copyright status will most likely be deleted. Ankry (talk) 09:30, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ankry: If you are referring to the PDF files uploaded at English Wikisource (s:File:Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath.pdf, s:File:Muintir Duibhlinne2.pdf, s:File:Muintir Duibhlinne3.pdf), it is my understanding that these are a user translation by Leibide themselves. In other words, when the translation is added as wikitext here the translation will be covered by the default license for contributions: {{CC-by-sa-3.0}}. --Xover (talk) 10:16, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Xover: They are signed to be translations by Domhnall Nagreine. We have no evidence that User:Leibide is Domhnall Nagreine and I doubt we can verify this on-wiki. Ankry (talk) 10:31, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ankry: The existing translation was uploaded to IA by Domhnall Nagreine (it is the first search hit for the translator's name in a Google search) under the Public Domain Mark 1.0 license, so we can certainly use that tag instead if needed. Google also reveals several Gaelige blog and local news posts making note of the translation and pointing to the copy at IA, so there is little chance that this is an unauthorised upload by a third party. --Xover (talk) 11:01, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, this may fail o Commons, but should be OK here. Ankry (talk) 21:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Dear Jon Harald Søby, I have learned from Ankry that it is possible to publish a modern Irish Gaelic translation of Dubliners, originally written by James Joyce. He/she has also given helpful instructions as to how to begin, as can be seen on this page. Ankry instructed me to address you first in future for Multilingual Wikisource if I have a query.

Ankry has created an index page for my translation. The problem is, I would like to change the title of the translation from Muintir Bhaile Átha Cliath to Muintir Duibhlinne if possible. It is my fault that the confusion arose- I had uploaded several files with different titles to English Wikisource before I learned how it’s done. Actually, I have two different translations of this same work (Dubliners). I would like to make that available on Wikisource eventually too, under a different title. For now though, I would like to focus on publishing the modern Irish Gaelic translation, using this new title (Muintir Duibhlinne). I don’t see how I can change the title of the title page from my end. Could you do it? If it’s simpler to just delete it and start again, then I’ll do this.

Ankry also advised how to provide an open copyright licence. I would just like to clarify that I am Domhnall Nagreine, as Ankry correctly surmised. Or rather, this is a pen-name I chose. A Domhnall na Gréine is just a nickname for a lie-in-the-sun or daydreamer (https://www.teanglann.ie/ga/fgb/D%c3%b3nall). My username is Leibide and I have no problem giving my real name if needed. I’d like to keep the pen-name for the translation though. I will follow Ankry’s advice for clearing copyright. @Jon Harald Søby: Leibide (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello Leibide, nice to see you here!

The name of the index page doesn't actually matter. The only thing that is important is that it matches the filename for the scan exactly. Some filenames are nice, some are not so nice, and most are somewhere in the middle. When you have finished transcribing (or, in this case, translating) a work, you will compile all the pages into a page in the main namespace (in this case, on the page Muintir Duibhlinne), that fetches the pages from the index page. You can see an example of how this is done on Im Schlaraffenland and its subpages (click "edit" to view the source). Does that explanation make sense? Jon Harald Søby (talk) 07:32, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that explains it handsomely. I have everything I need now to work on this. There will be no activity from me until mid-November, but I will get down to it then. I'm exited about it already. Leibide (talk) 17:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

@Ankry, -jkb-, Xover:}I have created a new Wikisource account with the username Domhnall Nagreine to avoid copyright issues with this or future content I'd like to put on Wikisource. I've also sent a copyright permission email to the Wikimedia VRT as advised (Ticket#2021081010010961), giving my name as Domhnall Nagreine. This is a pen name I've made up and that I'd like to use instead of giving my real name.Leibide (talk) 15:49, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ankry, -jkb-, Xover:}I will use this username in future to avoid further confusion, if other administrators think this is a good idea. I'm open to advice on this.Domhnall Nagreine (talk) 16:05, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Domhnall Nagreine: I need to first make the disclaimer that I am not familiar with the specific policies and practices on Multilingual Wikisource, so in the following there may be things that do not apply here. But speaking from the perspective of what the policies and practices would be on English Wikisource:

Texts on Wikisource have two possible derivations: either they have been previously published and should be credited to whoever the author was, or they are original to Wikisource and the authorship should be credited to "Wikisource". In the latter case we use "Wikisource" rather than individual contributors because many people may have contributed, and may do so in the future.

In this specific case I gather that the translation has been previously published, but perhaps not professionally so? That would tend to suggest we should credit the text to the author of that previously published version, using the pen name if that is all that is known, but preferably the author's real name.

In addition to the mere attribution issue we also need to make sure all texts hosted here are either public domain or compatibly licensed (compatibly licensed essentially means a permissive Creative Commons license). For a translation that had not previously been published we would have accepted the default licensing provided by our terms of service: the "CC BY-SA 3.0" that you must agree to whenever you save an edit here. But for a previously published work we need to verify that licensing. Your username here is actually completely irrelevant to that issue: anyone can create a user account with any name here, so we can trust nobody on that basis. Right now your new/extra username is pretty much only causing extra confusion (and it's usually better to rename a user account instead of creating a new one).

The way we actually verify compatible licensing of a previously published work varies. If J. K. Rowling wanted to release a new work under a compatible license they could just have it published on jkrowling.com with a note to that effect: we know she controls the site, and we can easily verify that it says something like "CC BY-SA". For cases where we cannot pin identity and authorization on a well-known website we often use what used to be called the "OTRS" process, which has just recently been renamed "VRT", the Volunteer Response Team. This is a team of volunteers that deal with all sorts of messages and requests that for various reasons cannot be handled on-wiki. Copyright permissions and licensing verification is one of these tasks.

The VRT team will want to verify the existence of the previously published work (the translation) and its authorship. And they will want to verify your identity to make sure the person contacting them is actually the author of that work and authorized to license it. And finally they will want to make sure you understand the consequences of licensing it under that license. For example, the Creative Commons licenses are non-revocable, so you cannot later change your mind, and they permit others to commercially exploit the work (sell it for profit). A lot of people want to give "permission for use on Wikipedia", but the licenses we use actually permit use and reuse on any website and for any purpose.

@Ankry, @-jkb-: Could you please check that in the above I have not misrepresented anything as regards Multilingual Wikisource? Xover (talk) 07:17, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

@Ankry:Fair enough. I will stick to my old username from now on (Leibide). I've had a few emails from [VRT agent] from the VRT since I sent the copyright permission email. He was indeed looking for a website, which I don't have. The only place where this was published was archive.org, so no, it is not officially published anywhere. It was a simple case of uploading a pdf file there and that was it. I've offered [VRT agent] to email him my photo identity and I'm waiting for his response. In the meantime I will do nothing. I can understand now why using a pen name is not simple when something has not been officially published elsewhere.Leibide (talk) 09:52, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Please do not post any information about a user's real life identity on wiki. User accounts on WMF projects are anonymous unless the user chooses to self-identify, and for some users being identified may lead to harassment or worse in real life. I have redacted the identifying information from the above message.

Regarding the work itself and permissions, you may suggest the VRT agent googles for your pen name. When I investigated it last year I found at least one local news report mentioning the translation, attributed it to that pen name, and linked to the upload on IA as the place to find it. You may be able to demonstrate your identity as its author by making a in-advance agreed change to the IA upload (thereby demonstrating you control the account that uploaded it). Don't do anything without instruction from the VRT agent, but this is one possible way they could get confirmation.

Another possible route since the translation has not been previously professionally published, is to ask the community here whether they are willing to accept this as a "Wikisource translation"; that is, as if you had first done your translation here. It is somewhat irregular since it has been previously uploaded to another website (which is why you're getting questioned about it), but I think it would be within the bounds of what the community could decide to accept. It's another option if the VRT agent fails to find sufficient evidence to accept the permission statement. --Xover (talk) 06:22, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Xover:I like your suggestion – change something on the place where it is already uploaded to the internet (archive.org). I would never have thought of that. I’ve emailed this suggestion to the VRT. I’ve also asked if it could be accepted as a Wikisource translation. Leibide (talk) 11:12, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

The VRT agent can help validate a copyright permission, but they cannot speak to whether a particular project will accept a given thing. Each Wikimedia project sets their own policies in that regard, and it is discussion and consensus among the community of volunteers on that project that can make such decisions. OTRS/VRT is really a way to handle issues that cannot easily be dealt with on-wiki: complaints by the subject of Wikipedia articles, claims of infringement from copyright owners, and validation of claimed permissions… that kind of thing. Xover (talk) 12:33, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Xover, Ankry: Fair enough. I haven't heard anything from the VRT agent since Tuesday anyway but I'll let you know if I do.Leibide (talk) 16:13, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

@Xover:I said I'd let you know if I got an email - I got an email from a VRT agent on Sunday. The agent said the licence I had used with the translation on archive.org (called Muintir Duibhlinne) was not acceptable on Wikimedia Commons. They said CC-BY-4.0 or CC-BY-SA-4.0 would be acceptable so I've just changed it to CC-BY-SA-4.0. That's all the news I have. Leibide (talk) 18:59, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

@Xover, Ankry:Permission has been added to the file page https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Muintir_Duibhlinne.pdf by OTRS/VRT :) Leibide (talk) 15:25, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's great news! Good to see that bit finally resolved itself. How are you getting on with getting your translation published (transcluded) to mainspace? --Xover (talk) 08:18, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

@Xover:I've finished. I'm chuffed about that :) Thank you for your help throughout the process.

Sandbox

Hi! :) I saw you used to sandbox for a personal project. That's not what the general sandbox is meant for. I moved your contents to your own, personal sandbox, where you can work on it further without any interference: User:Leibide/Sandbox. Greetings, --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 07:00, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Oops! I had not realised that I'd been doing that the wrong way. Now that you've pointed it out, it makes sense. I'll use this personal sandbox instead. Thank you. @Ooswesthoesbes:Leibide (talk) 11:27, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

No problem! :) --Ooswesthoesbes (talk) 13:10, 20 November 2020 (UTC)

Your edits on Teachtaireacht Lá Fhéile Pádraig 2021 ón Uachtarán Micheál D. Ó hUigínn

First off, thanks for the edits. There are a couple of things I'd like to draw your attention to, though.

I see from above that you are also User:Domhnall Nagreine. There are particular circumstances in your translation effort that make signing off your edits using the second account desirable; however, in general, it's not only unnecessary, it could be a bad thing -- the use of multiple accounts by a single person has long been a tactic of trolls and other bad-faith actors on Wikimedia projects, so it's often a red flag.

Second, the primary aim of Wikisource is to preserve the source material, warts and all. With a video, such as this one, the text should best reflect what was actually spoken. If you need to highlight an error, please use the {{SIC}} template: e.g., {{SIC|error|correction}} will appear like this: error. It's a little more complicated in this case, as there is also an official transcript, which the text was drawn from, so there are instances where there's a three-way conflict between the video, the transcript, and grammatical correctness, but treat the video as the source and ignore the transcript if it does come up.

Third... without nitpicking, there were a couple of changes where I'm pretty sure you didn't listen to the video before making your changes. The interface isn't really designed for video, and it's a bit awkward, but the time stamp for each segment is listed on the index page, so it is at least possible to seek to the right place manually. If in doubt, ask on the Talk page and {{ping}} the person who created the page (you can find that from the 'View history' tab). -- Jimregan (talk) 00:36, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jimreagan:I had not known the correct format for highlighting an error. This is good to know. Basically I just wanted to validate the President's speech. I don't have access to a computer from where I am now but I will look back over this on Thursday. Even while I was doing it, I felt the error corrections I was making were largely unnecessary. It was an inspiring speech and the overall message can be understood with little difficulty as it already is. I noticed the transcript halfway through while validating and began suggesting corrections to the text itself, rather than what was said. This was lazy on my part.I now feel that because an official transcript already exists,it is best to leave it untouched. Like I say, I will do this on Thursday. Thank you for your advice about the editing process. I have learned from this. As for the problems that using multiple accounts can cause, this makes sense. I will only use this Leibide account in future. Leibide (talk) 08:53, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

@Jimreagan:I've finished going back over it. I've removed the changes I made - the wording of the Wikisource page should now match the official transcript exactly, as it did before I messed with it. I did indeed use the {{SIC}} format you suggested for any correction I had, no matter how insignificant. I like this format - I find it to be unobtrusive. I struggled with the meaning of one fragment of sentence though - section 03:22 of the video: an mórtas [...] a bhaineann le [...] cur i bhfeidhm [...] a chur dínn. I tried to guess what the speaker meant to say here with cur i bhfeidhm and offered two possibilities. I will leave it to you to decide how to deal with this. I promise I won't mess with it any further. Leibide (talk) 17:56, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

@Leibide: my username is Jimregan, not Jimreagan, so I never saw any notices. {{SIC}} isn't appropriate for what are essentially your own annotations, where you are guessing at intended meaning, even if there were an error there. There isn't, though: "the vanities of assuming the right to dominate, to impose, to exclude" is the relevant section in the English edition, a reverse search of focloir.ie (on this page, change "Language" to Irish) gives 'cuir i bhfeidhm' as the first translation of "to impose"; a search for impose in FGB gives: Chuir sé a thoil i bh~ orthu, he imposed his will on them. -- Jimregan (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jimregan: I'm sorry about spelling your name wrong, causing you to not get any notices. I should have been more careful. My own annotations are inappropriate and unhelpful and should not have been included in the first place. The English version of the speech is very helpful. I ought to have found that and worked from it. The longer sentence 'Chuir sé a thoil i bhfeidhm orthu' does indeed make perfect sense to me for the given translation 'he imposed his will on them'. I must admit though that 'cur i bhfeidhm' still does not make sense to me for 'to impose' in the context of the English version of the President's speech. I understand it as merely to make some unspecified thing work or have an affect. Perhaps I have come up against the limits of my understanding of the language, which is far from perfect. In any case I should not have altered it in any way. As you had rightly pointed out in a previous message, it is best to preserve the source material. This is after all, as you mention, the primary aim of Wikisource. Change it back. Sorry for being a nuisance. Leibide (talk) 19:06, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

@Leibide: there's a balance I haven't managed to strike here, and I'm sorry for being overly terse. So, {{SIC}} wasn't appropriate in this case—there are other annotation mechanisms available, depending on what you are trying to achieve, it seemed to me that trying to list them would have been too much information. For something that's basically a question, the related talk page is almost always the best place to ask (adding a {{ping}} is recommended, though).

Being perfectly honest, that usage of 'cur i bhfeidhm' was new to me too, and though FGB and NEID support it, I do think it's a bit of a stretch. That said, those are the words that were spoken, and the speech is a matter of record.

As I said, I was overly terse. Most of your edits were good, and I should have mentioned that instead of giving a negative impression. There are, from time to time, people who are nuisances; I wouldn't have classed you as one of them. -- Jimregan (talk) 23:30, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

@Jimregan:No offence taken. I appreciate your message Leibide (talk) 19:25, 27 September 2021 (UTC)